An open letter to JHP
Dear John:
I am pleased to hear that you enjoy reading our blog. The compliments, backhanded or otherwise, are a mixed blessing (to extend the religious metaphor that animates our exchange), so I feel a need to acknowledge them. As you like to dissect matters, I will provide the same courtesy to your response regarding my last posting.
First, taking my opening salvo as a serious comment was a bit off the mark. Moreover, I would assume that you understand most phrases are “loaded”, hence the importance of knowing connotation and denotation. The purpose of my introduction accomplished its goals—you began a dialogue and here we are.
Next, I don’t think you can say that my posting ever posited “God” as a guilty party in these exchanges. Rather, I had questions regarding a particularly zealous sort of individual who takes the bible literally and his/her ability to reside comfortable in a democracy. I will let Definer take up the issue of fundamentalism, as this seems to be your beef regarding her/his last posting.
While I grant you that the Catholic Church has provided inspiration to many, and has been responsible for some truly selfless and humanitarian accomplishments, not all of the Church’s history is so laudable. In short, you provide a sanitized version of the institution’s past. We can discuss, for instance, the Church’s relationship to
Indeed, there may be fewer people interested in open debate and conversation than one might like, but why would you make such a ridiculous statement regarding the incompatibility of fundamentally different opinions under democracy. Clearly, your own knowledge of American history is problematic. Are you even aware of the public sentiment regarding Catholics in this country during the 19th century? Were American democracy antithetical to different opinions then the conspiracy theories present at that time regarding Catholics would have meant exodus for many.
Really, how can you write, “the point of democracy isn't to allow diverse opinions to coexist, but for one opinion to be established as the law of the land. One is free to act according to one's own opinion until the matter is decided. Then one must act according to the law.” This is asinine to the point of being comedic. If there was no point in allowing different points to coexist then why protect free speech and assembly—to allow people to voice the same thing and congregate to celebrate that one idea? If we were to take you at your word and follow all laws blindly then we would still have slavery, women’s inability to vote, segregation, and discrimination of all sorts.
Democracy offers its citizens the rights to peaceably (or not so peaceably if you read
How can you, as an American who benefits from the protections of your individual, idiosyncratic, and assumedly divergent (at times) views, “suspect it is impossible for large groups of people who believe fundamentally different things about the reality of the world to coexist.” Isn’t this one of the better accomplishments of
And yes, I do feel that “coexistence [is] an ultimate good. . . . it [is] something worth striving for above all else.” Are you suggesting you prefer enmity, divisiveness, and genocide? Granted, I am being hyperbolic, but what is the alternative? As you are another American, I consider you a fellow citizen and worthy of particular guarantees, life amongst them. What do you offer the rest of us?
My reasons for putting the words “natural law” in quotation marks should be clear enough. Your ad populum rationale—“ that the vast majority of peoples have believed in God, and that the same is true in the history of philosophy”—does nothing for those of us who hold either difference concepts of god or a general disbelief/uncertainty in a creator. Moreover, if natural law does not derive from a notion of a higher power then from where does it derive? Biblical scripture is not the only possible foundation here—try the Greek and Roman pantheon.
I do not care to debate reading lists with you. In the very least, this is a rather shallow appeal to authority, one I did not care to make. Why, then, do you? I would hope that I am not to conclude that your opinions are incapable of logical support?
JHP, my post was an invitation and I welcome your exchanges here. However, I am not as welcoming of your overt hostility. In the very least, if you care to spar here, please learn to be clever. You appear to be a musician, or a least a student of this art. Well, then, give us the sound of learned debate free from such boring barbs.
2 Comments:
Dear Thesaurus,
I had been waiting anxiously for your response, which is now appreciated.
A few brief points to be made: Most phrases are loaded. Shouldn't we, then, try to avoid them all the more for the sake of clarity?
By writing God as "God" I intended to signify the word, not the thing signified.
As regards the Church, oughn't you make the distinction between it as an institution, and it as its members? (I feel free to use the cliche response to your cliche accusation.)
To your more particular points, I would like very much to debate the Church's relationship to Germany and Italy during WWII, for on this issue I've come upon a lot of ignorance and legend.
And further back to the Crusades, what's your point? Do you have a problem with wars generally, or with who wages them? I'm sure your aware that the political landscape at the time was very little like ours today. The separation of Church and State was not so clear. Therefore, many secular duties and responsibilities (e.g., war, the Inquisition, which, if you look at it broadly, is not much different from what our wonderful democratic government is doing today) fell into the hands of the clerics.
What of the Church's treatment of particular astronomers? The Church had no problem with heliocentrism, if your referring to Galileo. In fact, the Church officially endorsed both Copernicus's and Kepler's astronomical theories. However Galileo, that exceptional genius, was also interested in theology and Biblical exegesis. That's where he ran afoul with the Church.
The main point still stands: to err is human. An institution must be judged, then, not only by its fruits, but also by its principles.
I think my comment on Definer's post should clarify what I meant by saying fundamentally different opinions are incompatible.
And it seems you purposefully misunderstand my "asinine" comment. I think we can agree that, while things are being flushed out, different opinions are present and active in the political life, and democracy supports and even demands this. However, after something is concluded, there is no room for dissent. To use your own examples, in modern society slavery is complete taboo. Who now is allowed to openly and actively campaign for slavery? Really, who should be allowed? (I'll briefly point out re: different opinions that this issue occasioned a very bloody war. I would be reluctant to call that coexistence. In fact I simply wouldn't.)
I suspect that it is impossible for large groups of people who believe fundamentally different things about the reality of the world to coexist because that seems to be the trend in history. America has succeeded laudably. I doubt, however, that America will continue on forever. I'll be sad to see it go, but I don't know of any institution save one that looks to be indestructible.
As regards coexistence being an ultimate good: coexistence is a tricky thing itself, isn't it? All the animals and plants in an ecosytem coexist, but one feeds on the other. What precisely do you mean by coexistence?
In some sense you're right. Ideally everyone would agree. But if someone believes that it's ok to terminate a fetus's life because of a club foot, I'm not sure that that is something with which I can peaceably coexist. Or, for example, look at the latest news from the Netherlands (I believe). Should we expect anyone to coexist with a political party dedicated to pedophiles? It's a bold claim you make.
Of course I know why you put natural law in quotation marks. I merely intended to point out to you that you were being inconsistent within the same post, even about the subject of the post.
Natural law derives from certain principles which arise from a study of man's nature. Yes, natural theology comes in to it. Natural theology, however, is a vastly different subject from Scriptural studies or mythology. Which leads me to the next point.
I don't even know what it means to debate a reading list. My point was merely this: how can you so easily dismiss something you (apparently) have not studied? I offered Aristotle and Aquinas as the chief defenders of what you accuse. Honesty, I think, encourages you to give them a read. It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to the logic and wisdom of some far more intelligent than myself. And although I could reproduce for you their arguments, I respectfully reserve for you the pleasure of discovering truth for yourself.
In the end, however, I hold little hope that I will change your mind. Such is always the case in debates. Those debating have little desire to change. I offer my opinions for the other readers of this blog.
Further all the above was rather tedious. You've successfully deflected the point. Now I no longer know what the disagreement is besides a very long list of particulars. Disagreements about particulars are rarely fruitful.
Finally, if there were any undue hostility, my apologies. It is not my intention to insult; it is occasionally to jolt.
Greets to the webmaster of this wonderful site. Keep working. Thank you.
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